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#1 hedglin

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:14 PM

QUOTE (Badger Bob @ Sep 1 2009, 09:09 PM)

And the pride of Pine Richland is about to make his MLB debut.


is there more than 2000 people in attendance huh.gif

#2 chiefton349

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:45 PM

I've officially disowned the Pirates. Whenever I refer to them I will no longer mention the name Pittsburgh in front of the name Pirates.

As far as I'm concerned they are no longer located in the city of Pittsburgh. No Pittsburgh team sucks this bad for this long.



#3 chiefton349

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE (RedRenesis @ Sep 1 2009, 04:11 PM)

Five from the record


One can only hope.

#4 chiefton349

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 11:02 PM

QUOTE (Loney @ Sep 6 2009, 10:33 PM)

More Bucco Caption fun





laugh.gif


"Hey guys, there are still people out there that actually think we will eventually become a competitive team."

#5 chiefton349

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Healthy_Scratch @ Sep 7 2009, 09:47 PM)

QUOTE

"Obviously, I am disappointed," Pirates owner Bob Nutting said. "While everyone within the Pirates' organization is tied to the streak, the fact is that the last two years have been nothing like those of recent past. We have built a strong foundation by investing in our core operations, while aggressively acquiring and developing impact talent. This has put us in a position to not only break this cycle of finishing below .500 soon, but to begin a new cycle in which we can consistently compete."





FYP

#6 chiefton349

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:23 PM

QUOTE (DonnieBrasco @ Sep 9 2009, 09:10 PM)

Oh, I didn't know that.

Is that just for the #1 pick though? Like the 3rd pick wouldn't go back to the AL would it? Even though we would finish 3rd to last.


Who cares?

They won't pick the top rated player anyway.

#7 M_i_B

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 01:57 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, that's history.

#8 M_i_B

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE (Healthy_Scratch @ Sep 7 2009, 09:31 PM)



I saw him on WGN.

#9 M_i_B

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (Kidspud @ Sep 8 2009, 11:59 PM)

Any mid- to low-level free agent that the Pirates would be willing to overpay (Jeromy Burnitz comes to mind. Joe Randa too.) And I feel you may be getting the impression that I think signing Sabathia and Teixeira are the way to go. I don't think the Pirates should operate that way at all; look at the Howard Baldwin comparison I made, one that I think a lot of fans (not yourself) don't seem to make.




I think you mean, "Dave Littlefield and Cam Bonifay failed at bringing top notch veteran talent of any kind here." They are the two men responsible for those moves. If you're going to blast "the Pirates organization," then you are laying blame on a lot of new people who don't deserve blame for past mistakes.



It didn't take them time for them to "figure out" anything. They got a new principle owner who has a clue about running a business, and he hired qualified people to do the job. So far it's been working pretty well, even if it isn't translating to wins at the ML level.



Too bad for the Nuttings that they only had two seasons to sit on it. McClatchy really milked it in his tenure there.



Sad story about the Wieters fiasco, and it illustrates how bad the talent evaluation system was under Littlefield: DL thought Wieters wasn't a top-five talent because of his throwing arm (link).

And if you are referring to Tony Sanchez, the guy who hit .316/.415/.561 at West Virginia this season, as a guy who "doesn't speak well for their youth movement," you'd be mistaken. (He can't possibly do worse than Doumit is right now...)



Decent draft signings? Paying over-slot on Matt Cain, Zach Von Rosenberg, and Zach Dodson is "decent?" Three players with college commitments (and in Von Rosenberg's case, a strong commitment to LSU) aren't "decent" signings, they are great moves for Huntington. That's exactly the kind of draft Huntington needed to have to make it a success, even if they didn't end up with Aaron Crow at 4th overall.



Wrong. For a team in a situation like the Pirates are in now, prospects mean everything. The prospects are the Pirates' way of building from within. It is, as you say, the "success model." It is the only realistic way for a small-market team like the Pirates to be able to field a winning team. It takes a long time and isn't going to be fun waiting for--especially after a decade of total incompetence. But it's the only way until baseball changes its economic system (read: salary cap).






#10 M_i_B

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:13 PM

QUOTE (Kidspud @ Sep 9 2009, 07:53 PM)

Actually, the comparison works regardless of the Penguins' record. If a team owner (in this case, Baldwin) were to pump money into a team's payroll with disregard for the team's debt, then the team will go bankrupt. This idea of just increasing payroll for the Pirates (which many fans think is the easy solution) is very naive.



Fading? He's hit a cool streak. This happens with every player in baseball on every level. "Fading" is what happens to older players, when they lose their skill set. McCutchen is not fading by any stretch of the imagination.



And Littlefield undid any good will brought on by Bonifay's mistakes when he started to completely botch the organization. He had a lousy scouting department (read the link about Wieters) and made trades that were either complete hits (Giles for Bay) or total misses (Aramis Ramirez for Bobby Hill). He also tried to bring in over-the-hill, overpriced free agents (remember Joe Randa?) instead of building from within.

Huntington, on the other hand, has taken a losing ML team, traded a bunch of players that are towards the end of their primes (NyjMo, Sanchez, McLouth) for prospects to build around McCutchen and Alvarez. Sorry, but the fact is that if they held on to Wilson/Sanchez/McLouth/whatever league-average player the Pirates have had in the past two years, those guys would be hitting their declines right as McCutchen and Alvarez were hitting their primes. The best record that this hypothetical team could pull off? Maybe .500. Not playoffs, just .500.

I get that people are jaded after the train wreck that was Littlefield, Legendary Lloyd, and McClatchy, but things are different now. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington are rebuilding the right way--not by trying to make a patchwork team like Littlefield, but by blowing up the system and starting fresh. It isn't going to be pretty now, but it's the only way that the Pirates can field a winning team.



I get that Brandon Moss has been a total disappointment, but LaRoche has not been this black hole next to Jason Bay. Here's a site that has Bay's Wins Above Replacement, and here's the same site for LaRoche's WAR. Basically, Bay has contributed 2.4 wins for Boston while LaRoche has contributed only 1.6 for the Pirates. To put that into perspective next to a star player, Ryan Braun has contributed 4.2 wins to the Brewers.

The short story on LaRoche and Bay is this: Both have been pretty crummy. Neither would make the Pirates a winning team this year. People really need to stop acting as if that trade has been an abomination.

Here's a link to Tabata's minor-league stats from this year.. He's hitting much better than you claim, and he's doing it at age 21.

Tony Sanchez has played in three games since being promoted to Lynchburg. Three games is too small a sample size to say he's struggling. You're really grasping at straws with that line.

Jeff Clement has been pretty mediocre, but he was also shipped to the Pirates with Ronny Cedeno, who has filled in adequately for Wilson. That trade's looking like one heck of a wash for the Pirates right now.




A money guy who has shown no problem with seeing the Pirates go over slot on the draft this year and last.

And Huntington was "demoted?" You really think moving form "assistant GM" to "special assistant to the GM" is a demotion? Do you have some special insider knowledge to the importance of job titles within the Indians organization?



Nate McLouth is overrated. Defensively, he was one of the 10 worst players in baseball last year (link) and he had one very good month at the plate. Trading him when NH did was very smart.



He hit .308/.357/.501 last year. The injury to his wrist broke him down, and he's been pouty about the trades since. The deal hasn't worked out, but these aren't circumstances that could have been predicted when they signed the deal.



That it has. If it were someone like Aaron Crow that the Pirates had tried to draft, fans would be moaning and wailing about not being able to sign him until the deadline, the same way the Alvarez situation was reacted to.



I love how anyone who does research about the moves made by the new front office and likes what they see are kool-aid drinkers. It's so easy to just be able to dismiss anything the team has done in the past two years because of what prior management has done. Ignorance really is bliss.

I'll give you this--the current Pirate management has really put the team into a position to win while upsetting a lot of fans. I can't wait for another 3 or 4 years when the same people who decry this front office are sitting in the stadium to watch all the former prospects field a winning team.



You must LOVE the Kool Aid.

#11 M_i_B

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 10:30 AM

QUOTE (Kidspud @ Sep 10 2009, 06:45 PM)

Here's nine prospects for you to keep an eye on: Pedro Alvarez, Tim Alderson, Jose Tabata, Brad Lincoln, Tony Sanchez, Robbie Grossman, Zach Von Rosenberg, Colton Cain, and Gorkys Hernandez. Will all of them contribute to the Pirates? Maybe, but maybe not. Are they all can't-miss prospects like Alvarez or McCutchen? Nope. But they are what the team is going to have to build on for the next two to three years.




With the way McLouth was hitting (.256/.349/.470) and the way he has been fielding, he wasn't going to contribute to a winning team if they held onto him, and they wouldn't get as good a return if they had traded him in a later contract year.




I don't care for the return, but for an average player like McLouth, they aren't going to offer a lot for him. Nobody outside of Tommy Hanson or Jason Heyward could "blow away" anybody, and the Braves aren't foolish enough to offer a player of that caliber for McLouth.

And no, the trade was not a "salary dump." Not when it was the Pirates who signed him to a $15 million contract a few months earlier. Here's a link to a P-G story documenting how much money was saved through all of the trades made this season. If they were so interested in dumping salary, don't you think they would have traded Adam LaRoche ($7 Million) before McLouth (a whopping $3.5 Million with signing bonus)?



Bay is also hitting around .263, and he's playing half of his games in hitter-friendly Fenway Park. And if you struggle as badly as Jason Bay has with defense, it significantly weakens the strength of his offensive game. His offense doesn't make up for his defensive ineptness by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, don't try to downplay the importance of sabermetric statistics in baseball, not when successful GMs like Theo Epstein and Billy Beane have built sustainable, winning clubs by utilizing them. And I don't feel any pressure to prove to anyone that Bay and LaRoche are both having mediocre seasons because there isn't really anything to prove. The numbers are all right there; How can I prove this type of evidence?



No, the drafting of Sanchez isn't indefensible. While there definitely were better top-end players available, they weren't a whole lot better than Sanchez was--and certainly not good enough to sacrifice a summer of development for. With Sanchez, he was signed shortly after the draft and has a full summer of pro baseball under his belt, while Aaron Crow and Zach Wheeler are that much further behind in their development.

And if the Pirates had signed a Crow/Wheeler-type player, then they wouldn't have had the resources to sign late-round picks Von Rosenberg and Cain. Those picks made sense for the Pirates because of how devoid of talent their system. Remember, not every player in the system has to be a first-rounder to have major-league talent.



Ripping him? Unfair? All I did was point out that his defense is not nearly as good as it seems, and really nowhere near good enough to deserve a gold glove.




You can't just predict a wrist injury of that severity. Fatigue? Yes, and Doumit is guilty of plenty of that. But they couldn't predict such a severe injury, nor his post-trade deadline PMS-ing.



While I (nor anybody else for that matter) can guarantee playoffs, they are in a far better position now than if they had just held on to everybody. The results have yet to be seen, but it already looks leaps and bounds better than anything done by the previous front office. My only problem is when people start to lump Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington in with McClatchy, Littlefield and Bonifay. That argument just doesn't make sense.




QUOTE (Kidspud @ Sep 10 2009, 07:01 PM)

Here's one scouting report on McCutchen. Here's yet another. And obeying the rule of three, here's a report from Keith Law at ESPN (scroll down to #18). None of those reports suggest a .270-.280 hitter with middling power. If you can find a scouting report on McCutchen that suggests he's going to be an average player, then go right ahead and post it.




No, but people should count on Garrett Jones as a league-average player next year. Here's his ZiPS profile for next year, and what it says is that he's going to be league average. Even then, he's only had one appearance at the ML level before playing for the Pirates. He's going to be okay, but I wouldn't count on him being a Pirate come next July. Alvarez and Tabata have a great chance at coming up next season, and depending on their positions, Jones may not have an everyday spot on the team. If the offer's right, they should consider dealing him to a team that will need him more.



Why, thank you for typing so slow; it made such a big difference when I was reading it. I'm sorry that these statistics don't support your notions, but neither Bay nor LaRoche have played well, certainly not well enough to make an impact on the Pirates record. Was it the right deal? Maybe, maybe not. But it hasn't destroyed the team like some people want to believe.



Why do you feel the need to cherry pick stats for this guy? He's hit .303/.370/.404 in 61 AA games and .276/.333/.410 in 32 AAA games as a 21-year-old. For comparison's sake, Andrew McCutchen hit .258/.327/.383 in 188 AA games and .313/.347/.418 in 17 AAA games as a 20-year-old. They aren't a perfect comp, but the statistics bode very well for Tabata. And he's 21; you can't write off his power yet because of his young age. He will grow and gain power over time.



Really? I'd love to see a scouting report that says that. In the meantime, here's a report that's pretty nice to Sanchez. You're more than welcome to ignore anything good the report says about him and focus only on his negatives.



Would you mind posting a link to a story where anyone on the Pirates payroll is bragging about Clement?



No, they went over slot with Alvarez because that was what it would take to sign the draft's top overall talent. This year, the Pirates went over-slot to have a draft with quality prospects throughout instead of having a top-heavy draft class.



Huntington and Coonelly know what they're doing. There's nothing to "slurp" or whatever term you'd like to use. They've put the team into a position to be doing well in 3 to 4 years. Heck, 2 years from now is when the Pirates should be playing well. They aren't as far off as you'd like to believe.



Again, can you post a link to any of this, or are you just making stuff up? Perrotto was very optimistic in the article I posted before, and that article was written right after the trade deadline. I'm not asking for much, just something to prove he actually said those things. (Well, that and proof for everything else you've said, but I'm not holding my breath...)




QUOTE (Kidspud @ Sep 10 2009, 07:42 PM)

I'm not gonna try to convince you of anything about the Bucs, but why do you think it's going to take 5 years until the team starts winning again?



Chugalug chugalug.

#12 M_i_B

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE (Kidspud @ Sep 11 2009, 02:26 PM)

Here's a line from the MLB report on McCutchen:


But hey, he's hitting .270, so he's going to be an average MLB outfielder. Clearly everyone who thinks he's a great prospect is wrong because he's hit a cold streak...



And I explained why that sentiment was bunk. Are you really going to tell me that all MLB GMs are using garbage stats to build their teams? Or is it just that sabermetrics are too complex that they are garbage?




I'm not tossing Bay under the bus. I'm just showing you what his statistics are. It's evidence of how bad Bay and LaRoche have played this year. The difference between Bay and LaRoche this year is minimal, not nearly good enough to make the Pirates a winning team.



Thank you for proving my point about how you cherry pick information. I guess the line, "He's seen as nearly major league ready today," doesn't count because it says something nice about Sanchez?



It shows that the team isn't neglecting the lower rounds of the draft by just focusing on the top pick or two. Wouldn't you say it's less risky to put all your funds into one pitcher than into two or three like they did in this draft?



Know what else that article says about Baseball America rankings?



Wow, can you believe it? The talent level of those top 20-30 players is the same? That #4 pick would be the same as a #24 pick? And can you believe how the article says Baseball America is not the be all and end all of player rankings?




Here's why it isn't possible for the Pirates (or any other team, for that matter) to draft like you want them to: If the Pirates were to have drafted Zach Wheeler instead of Tony Sanchez in this draft, then not only would they have less money to sign players like Von Rosenberg, but they would've had to wait to negotiate with the players until the last few days or so of the signing period. The top priority is signing the #1 pick, and while a team can estimate how much money the player wants, they won't know until there's about an hour left in the draft. That means even less time and money to work with on the lower-round guys, and the draft class will be top heavy.

This story goes into a little more detail, and is an interesting read anyways.



Look, until you can provide a link to what you claim Perrotto said, then your point is totally invalid. I heard him praise the farm system on a pre-game show right after the deadline, but I can't use that as evidence here because I can't link to it.

And no, that article was not cherry picked. If it was, then there would be many more articles from Perrotto that slam the team's current management for making bad moves. Why don't you go and find some to link to here, or would that be too difficult?



That Kool Aid goes down smooth, dont it?

#13 M_i_B

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:17 PM

You really have nothing better to do than e-stalk me?

#14 M_i_B

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 10:49 PM

You're my %@$+*, you realize that right?

#15 M_i_B

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 07:59 AM

So... yeah.

#16 rosalie52

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 09:15 PM

Steve Pearce has a hat trick tonight (three walks)...

#17 rosalie52

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 04:27 PM

I've officially disowned the Pirates. Whenever I refer to them I will no longer mention the name Pittsburgh in front of the name Pirates.

As far as I'm concerned they are no longer located in the city of Pittsburgh. No Pittsburgh team sucks this bad for this long.


They deserved to be moved to Montreal.
  

#18 dudelove12

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 03:04 PM

The Pirates lost all 4 games in Cincinnati for the first time since 1975. laugh.gif

#19 dudelove12

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 07:45 PM

So by my math, that means 3 years.

#20 dudelove12

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 10:01 PM

QUOTE (dudelove12 @ Sep 2 2009, 08:45 PM)

So by my math, that means 3 years.







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